This is such a sick, perverse, and profane way of spreading the “gospel” by the “Christian” anti-porn site XXXchurch that I cannot even put the photograph on this post. Suffice to say it is of a 30-foot inflatable phallus named Wally the Wiener that’s somehow used to fight pornography. If you choose, you can view this trash here. (Please do not do so if children are present).
When the staff of this “Christian” anti-porn “ministry” aren’t posing for pictures with porn stars, they’re posing for a group photo in the late Anna Nicole Smith’s bed.
1, January 14, 2008 at 10:29 pm
omgoodness, this either better be a joke or a bad dream - wake me up someone!!!
1, January 14, 2008 at 11:05 pm
You’re not being judgmental, are you? You know all the details about this ministry, do you?
Why not open your eyes and learn a little about the ministry before passing judgment? I’d recommend starting with this video.
1, January 14, 2008 at 11:10 pm
Dear Donny,
You’re not misusing Matthew 7:1 are you?
A 30-foot inflatable penis is all I need to know about that “ministry.”
1, January 14, 2008 at 11:29 pm
I just watched some more of the content of that site. It was an ad that said everytime someone masterbates, “God kills a kitten.” RIDICULOUS! There may be good intentions of saving those involved in the porn industry, but I object to the modus operandi - too much worldiness is being used in an effort to make it seem cool (note the “super cool” black flesh plugs in the pastors temple/body).
1, January 14, 2008 at 11:42 pm
They have perplexed me as well. I find it’s nice that are not hostile, yet unusual they would march into hell for a heavenly cause.
1, January 14, 2008 at 11:44 pm
By the way, I’m one of the heathens they are trying to save.
1, January 14, 2008 at 11:47 pm
Oh, I see from the TOP POSTS you people hate Mormons. I wish you all well but I think I’ll go back to MY world where I’m loved. Peace.
1, January 14, 2008 at 11:55 pm
Dear Steve,
I know this is a tad bit off the topic . . . but I am sorry to see that you equate defending the Christian faith from the doctrinal attacks of Mormonism, (and loving those trapped in it enough to expose the lies that will one day send them to Hell), with “hate.” I do not hate Mormons. I never have. In fact, I personally have never met a Mormon that I didn’t like and have Mormons in my family that I dearly care about. Most Mormons are wonderful people. It’s the doctrines of Mormonism that I disagree with.
When one warns a bus full of people that the bridge ahead is out, is that “hate?” To keep quiet while knowing the inevitable fate of those aboard that bus is “hate.” “Love” is to warn them.
And since when did “love” become a synonym for “absence of all opposition?”
Sincerely,
- The Pilgrim
P.S. I had to remove the link associated with your comment name (”Steve”) due to the fact that it linked to a pornographic site. I’m sure you understand.
1, January 15, 2008 at 12:11 am
I have nothing against saving a heathen or 10, I just dont agree with hanging out with porn stars in their venues which are filled with smut as a principal method of “ministering”. There seems to be little or no difference between that and hanging out in brothels trying to save a prostitute or 2. Or trying to save muggers by hanging out in dark alleys, although that would be ONLY physically compromising, versus spiritually compromising.
1, January 15, 2008 at 12:12 am
As a wise old preacher once told me - “It is far better to be trusted than to be loved.”
1, January 15, 2008 at 6:18 am
Steve,
Do you love your children so much that you will let them pull a pot of boiling water onto themselves? Do you love your children so much you will let them run out into traffic? Because according to your logic, that is love. “As long as they’re enjoying themselves, I won’t warn them of the dangers of what they’re doing.” That is not love, my friend.
And Steve, I too would have been one of those that this ministry would have tried to reach. Before I got saved, I would spend 1-2 hours surfing for pornography. We haven’t all been good little boys and girls all our lives.
OK, back on topic. If these ministries did things the right way, it could work. After all, this may be the only way to reach them. Consider what Hosea had to do after his wife went off and played the harlot. God didn’t tell him to bring her back, He told him to buy her from her masters. Amy Carmichael saved many young girls from forced prostitution in India and led them to the Lord. There are missionaries right now in southeast Asia that are working doggedly to get girls out of prostitution and into the kingdom of God.
If XXXchurch followed the lead of Christ, and did their work prayerfully, and without the tools of this Satanic world, they could do a great thing. If they don’t do it right, it will fail from the start.
1, January 15, 2008 at 6:54 am
I saw this on “A Little Leaven” last night & I was absolutely nauseated by it! There certainly is a need to draw people away from porn & lead them to the Lord, but this is NOT the way to do it.
1, January 15, 2008 at 8:02 am
Have any of you taken the time to read your Bible? It is filled with sex and murder, is it not? Lot’s daughters sleep with their father and become pregnant by him. King David kills a man to take his wife. An entire book is dedicated to sex (Song of Solimon).
Jesus comes to earth and is God in the flesh. He is criticized by self righteous people because he hangs out with thieves and prostitutes. Those complaining about X3 in this discussion would likely have been amongst the complainers.
As a Christian, give up your right to be offended and decide to pull your head out of the judgmental box you’ve created to hold your narrow viewpoints. You’ll be glad you did!
1, January 15, 2008 at 11:49 am
Dear Donny,
It didn’t take you Long to cite the two most common verses uses by the biblically illiterate. 1). “Jesus hung out with sinners” and 2). “Judge not lest you be judged.” I do not say this to be insulting, but my experience is that those who have very little comprehension of the Scriptures and the proper interpretation of those Scriptures (hermeneutics) quote these verses out of context and as frequently as if they’re going out of style. Let me address these briefly:
1) Jesus never excused the sin of those He spent time with, and he did not compromise His message with them. The issue is NOT whether XXXChurch is trying to reach those trapped in porn. I have no problem with this (if it’s their intent). It’s their offensive, pornographic, pragmatic, man-centered tactics that is an affront to a Holy God. A 30-foot inflatable penis’ named Wally the Wiener and saying that “God kills kittens when you masterbate” is not acceptable and you cannot justify this from Scripture and you know it. Which is why you choose character assassination as your defense.
Donny, you are terribly deceived if you honestly, genuinely, and truly believe that the Holy One of God, Jesus the Messiah, would condone the use of a 30-foot inflatable penis to spread His Gospel.
And what’s with your silly question about whether or not we read our Bibles? No Donny, none of us have read our Bible. What’s a Bible? Come on man, don’t make such silly assertions through questions like that. The problem I see here is not whether anyone is reading their Bible, but whether they understand what it says and follows what it says.
2). You keep throwing the “Judge not, lest you be judged” mantra around like you get a commission for each time you use it. Well, to quote Paul Washer, “Twist not Scripture lest you be like Satan!”
Unfortunately you are (either unknowingly or intentionally) misquoting Scripture. (Very dangerous thing to do). Read the whole chapter of Matthew 7, not just the first verse. Since you apparently are a reader of your Bible but not an undestander, let me help you with the whole “judging” thing:
* Jesus is teaching against hypocritical judgment in Matthew 7, which is what the religious leaders at that time were doing. An example of this would be someone who is preaching against adultery to others, yet engaged in an affair himself.
* Jesus never expected us to blindly go through life incapable of making judgments. Otherwise He wouldn’t have told us time and time and time again to watch out for false teachers and false prophets and those trying to lead you astray. How can you possibly identify the wolves in sheep’s clothing if you can’t judge them? Seriously, Donny, how?
* The Apostle Paul not only judged people (and their names were recorded for all time in Scripture), and not only did he rebuke (i.e. judge) Peter to his face, but the Apostle Paul instructed the Church to judge those within the Body. You can read this instruction for yourself in 1 Corinthians 5:1-13. Pay careful attention to the fact that he judged a man without even being in that man’s presence (verse 3). Very judgmental by the standards of many professing Christians today.
So please, I beseech you to stop with the mudslinging and deal with the issue at hand. The intentions of XXXChurch may be genuine, but the use of a 30-foot inflatable penis named Wally the Wiener is an abomination to the cause of Christ.
I see (from your blog) that Donald Miller books were a great influence on you. May I suggest one (besides the Bible of course)? Pick up a copy of John MacArthur’s Ashamed of the Gospel: When the Church Becomes Like the World. I also highly recommend watching this sermon by Paul Washer. You can listen to the audio version or download it to your PC by clicking here. Perhaps if you check out these suggestions, you will better begin to see–and understand–the giant chasm between you and I.
Sincerely,
-The Pilgrim
P.S. What’s the deal with your denial of the Creation account in this post?
1, January 15, 2008 at 1:36 pm
What part of “Go forth and sin no more” did you miss? Or that whole thing about casting out demons in the name of Beelzebub?
1, January 15, 2008 at 3:19 pm
The post to which you linked is not a denial of the creation account “Pilgrim” (why not use your real name, Paul?). It is common sense. It is not “us vs them”. It doesn’t have to be “either/or”. Did God tell you the method He used to create the world? No, but He sure left a lot of scientific evidence. Clue: Creation and Science will NEVER conflict.
I’ve not only read the entire Bible, I am currently reading numerous commentaries on it as part of my seminary classes. I constantly council with people who study the scriptures as well.
I seriously doubt a single person posting on this site has the right to judge the actions of anyone else. Which of you are without sin and therefore of the mindset to judge sin?
When I run across individuals who dedicate their lives to showing why everyone else is wrong, I highly suggest they instead invest a lot of time reading and less time posting about how horrible other belief systems are or condemning the methods used by ministries to reach the lost. More people need to get out from behind their keyboard, stop complaining, and DO something.
And if you’re doing so, I’d suggest that you stop listening to preachers who received their education via correspondence courses or by claiming the Holy Spirit taught them. Anyone can make such claims.
1, January 15, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Pride and arrogance are not fruits of the spirit.(but I’m sure you already knew that)
1, January 15, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Donny Said>>”And if you’re doing so, I’d suggest that you stop listening to preachers who received their education via correspondence courses or by claiming the Holy Spirit taught them. Anyone can make such claims.”
Wow Donny…aren’t you being a bit judgmental there? Why is it okay for you to throw out such judgements when you just ’schooled’ everyone here on how its not Biblically okay to judge?
1, January 15, 2008 at 6:19 pm
Denying that creation took place in 6 literal days means that you are saying that death came before Adam. This causes huge problems for the entire Bible. In fact if you throw out Adam and Eve as the first humans and the first sinners, I don’t see any way to save the Bible from the trash pile. The Gospel rests on sin entering through Adam and righteousness entering through Christ. When you tinker with Genesis 1, you’re tinkering with the Gospel.
Furthermore, evolution is silly when you think it through. I agree that there will never be a conflict between true science and the Bible. Science has taught all kinds of stupid things, and we now see them as stupid. George Washington was bled as a medical treatment. Leviticus 17:11 contradicts the theory of blood letting, and the Bible has been proven correct by true science. When the Bible and science contradict each other, we can rest assured the Bible is right.
Thanks,
Bill
1, January 15, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Bill,
Do more reading on the subject. Seriously. Start with a google search. Type in something like
Are the 6 days of creation literal?
-or-
Did God create the world in 6 literal days?
Or something similar. Read the work of respected theologians and Christians who are in the scientific community. I think you’ll be surprised at what you find.
I know, I know… many Christians would prefer to believe the earth is flat. The problem is that such beliefs simply aren’t true.
It’s time to stop being so literal in some interpretations, but so allegorical in others. Christians need to educate themselves and stop accepting the opinions of others. Search the original language. Study context. Learn the culture at the time of the writing. Only then can you really have a chance of understanding what is actually being said.
Be free!
1, January 16, 2008 at 6:16 am
Donny,
Since you obviously have a veritable treasure trove of wisdom and knowledge about all these “Christian” scientists who have somehow miraculously “proven” evolution and “proven” the Bible wrong, will you please be so kind as to share with us poor, slobbering Christians before we have to empty our drool cup?
Since you seem so heck-bent on digging up dirt on Pilgrim, methinks thou shouldst be a bit more forthcoming. Forsooth? What is this seminary you are attending. It would be interesting where you are getting your ideas about the Bible.
1, January 16, 2008 at 9:00 am
Dear Fourpointer,
Try starting with the Londen Institute.
Dear Chris,
Certainly by now you have discovered in your own experience that:
* Those who throw around “Judge not” the most are the ones who do the most judging.
* Those who preach so much about tolerance are the most intolerant.
* Those who demand we be more loving and less hateful are the ones who throw love out the window and become the most hateful when their opinions are questioned. (If you still have doubts, just wait for the responses I receive to this comment).
Pointing out their glaring hypocrisy usually only sends them into a rage. When Jesus did this to the religious leaders of His time, they crucified Him. When the Reformers did it to the religious leaders of their time, they were burned at the stake. Sadly, history often repeats itself and if it does in America, you better bet that people like you and I will be the first to be executed by those loving, tolerant, non-Judgmental professing Christians who will think they will be doing God a service.
At the risk of sounding like I’m defending Donny, these do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do traits are definitely not unique to him. I get judged by the pseudo-tolerant crowd so frequently that I’ve become accustomed to it and have learned to not only expect it, but to live with it.
1, January 18, 2008 at 2:18 am
Four Pointer,
Nobody has “proven” the Bible wrong. You’re missing the point. The point is that DARWIN proved what the Bible was saying all along.
Remember when Christians, not all that long ago, thought the earth was the center of the Universe? They used to use scripture to back up their claims (amongst other things). Once proven wrong, it became very obvious that their interpretation of scripture was not correct.
I’m sure you realize the Bible wasn’t written in English. If you search the original language of Genesis chapter 1 and study it, you’ll find that the word we think of as literal days in the original language can be translated to mean 12 hours, 24 hours, or an unlimited AGE. Evidence proves that the latter is the correct interpretation.
What needs to be adjusted is our understanding of what the Bible is telling us. Nobody is DISPROVING it.
As for digging dirt on Pilgrim, don’t get your panties in a bundle. Any time someone starts stating how wrong another group is (see posts on other religions here on this blog) while hiding behind an anonymous nickname I start wondering if they really believe what they’re saying. If someone is speaking truth it seems to me they’d be proud of their words.
There is no judgment on my part. I’m not the one condemning the actions of effective ministries, nor am I “exposing” other denominations as I’ve seen in some of your other articles.
1, January 18, 2008 at 11:49 am
My personal opinion is that GOD is all powerful and could’ve :
A) created the world in 6 24 hr time frames or days
B) 6 equivalents of GOD’s time/days (1000 years = 1 GOD’s day is a popular guess) or
C) 6 periods of time or days measured in another way, other than 24 hrs or 1000 years.
Whichever one it was makes no difference to me in my personal salvation.
1, January 18, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Jack Black,
I agree with your conclusion.
The evidence seems to show letter C to be the case. In letter B, (1,000 = 1 Day) the point was once again that God doesn’t look at time the same way we do.
1, January 18, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Simply put, it is EVERY Christian’s duty to defend the faith from heresy, lies, and deception (if they truly love the truth). Jude clearly calls us to contend for the faith. Neither the Apostles, nor Jesus Himself stood idly by in the face of doctrinal error. They confronted it.
Now based the on links you provided as examples, I am going to go out on a limb here and assume that you believe there is no heretical doctrine taught in Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Roman Catholicism. If I am correct in this assumption then this is yet another area we disagree on. And because I see it differently, that is why this blog is in existence.
This is what I blog about right now based on my convictions gleaned from Scripture, instead of what everyone else tells me I should blog about. I don’t go on anyone else’s blogs and tell them what to write about or what not to write about. Everyone is entitled to that freedom of speech. If I’m not mistaken you even opened up your porn-debate on that very premise.
Donny, if you haven’t been able to tell by now I, (any many who comment on here), do not believe in this new post-modern, all-inclusive, everyone-but-Hitler-gets-into-Heaven, social gospel that has seemed to plague the church as of late. I believe that the road is NARROW and the path is NARROW just as Jesus said and that not all who call Him Lord will enter into Heaven. Most importantly it’s not my opinion; it’s Scripture. Those who disagree have issue with God, not me.
Furthermore Jesus warned us time and time again to watch out for false teachers and false prophets. I would be an unloving, cold-hearted, hypocrite if I believed what I do yet refused to engage those in error. Just like the rich man and Lazarus. I bet the rich man would give anything to have had someone confront him about his ways.
If these people (LDS, JWs, RC) are in error (not according to me but according to Scripture) then they are not on that narrow path, period. (And also, the majority of information I’ve posted regarding Mormonism, for example, are their own quotes and doctrine).
Now, if you think these aforementioned groups are not in need of anything and that they are all fine, then obviously you will come to the conclusions that you already have. However, I do not believe this.
If you deny the infallibility, authority, and power of the written Word of God like Rob Bell (who I believe you admire) has done, then we can begin to see the foundation of our differences, and nothing either of us will say will convince the other.
Now the origin of the thread on this post was regarding the validity (or utter audacity) of Wally the Wiener as a ministry tool. I don’t believe I ever questioned their intentions, nor the salvation of those involved, and yours neither for that matter (even in the face of your angry verbal assaults). Yet I incurred your wrath and endured your relentless hostility anyway. Believe it or not, my intentions are not to argue but to logically debate the issues. Hence why I decided to no longer discuss with you Wally the Wiener (it was going no where).
Taking all this into consideration, I would like to make a suggestion (if you’re willing of course). Lighten up. If you feel this threatened over someone on a blog challenging Wally the Wiener, how do you handle a challenge in person? You can talk about love all day long, but its truthfulness is put to the test by how you react when your pride is pricked. Seriously, if I got this worked up over challenges to my beliefs (trust me, they come frequently) I’d end up having a stroke.
Your anger directed toward me may have been better used elsewhere when you consider this blog’s readership is minuscule in comparison to a site like XXXChurch, and when especially compared to the world’s population as a whole.
And finally, if the gentleman in question wishes to have all his personal information broadcast, then I will be more than happy to re-post the comments (your other comments remained up for several days, but I get no kudos for that). I just don’t think it would be fair at this point to do that unbeknownst to him. I’m sure you understand.
Sincerely,
- The Pilgrim
1, January 29, 2008 at 7:55 am
This theological debate is going nowhere.. The real question is if XXXCHURCH is showing Gods love among the Porn Industry. Donny Pauling is a living breathing example of what X3CHURCH’s ministry has done out of Gods love.
TOO MANY OF US FOCUS ON THEOLOGICAL DISCUSSION AND DEBATES AND FORGET THAT THE POWER OF LOVE IS 10,000 TIMES MORE RELEVANT AND EFFECTIVE THAN KNOWLEDGE.
1, January 31, 2008 at 5:58 am
David,
funny how you can be wrong and right at the same time.
The real question is NOT whether xxxchurch is showing God’s love. The question is AM I showing God’s love? I mean practically? I am struggling with this part of the question, and that’s why I’ve been quiet all along this discussion.
I agree with you that God’s love is xxx-times more relevant than knowledge. But if God chose me as part of his mouth, how can it become relevant to my next door neighbor, who might happen to be a porn star? Does it become relevant if I send him a protest letter listing all the things the bible says he does wrong? Or does it become relevant if I invite him over for our family’s pizza night?
I made it a rule for myself: Love first. By the way, not Love only. Love first.
Pilgrim,
I agree with you. The path is narrow. Damn narrow. That’s why we have to be extra super careful not to push someone off to have more room for ourselves.
“A 30-foot inflatable penis is all I need to know about that “ministry.”” - I don’t want to start thinking about all the instances where someone who used that phrase - “that’s all I need to know about” - and proved to be wrong. Why is that all you need to know? Why stop there? By the way, don’t judge xxxchurch by its signs (and a 30 foot penis is one hell of a large sign, i know). Judge it by its fruits. A bad tree brings bad fruit, a good one, good fruit. Ok with that? With me on this one?
So, what are the fruits of xxxchurch? Good or bad, decide for yourself.
1) Your #1 opponent in this discussion, Donny, used to be a pornographer quite successful in his job, and quite an expert in fending off all Christian efforts to stop him from doing what he did. Along comes xxxchurch (and in my personal opinion, the holy spirit, too), and acts out the “love first”-rule. (Read his blog about how xxxchurch sent a pastor out to his place by plane the very day after he contacts them, and about the other encouragements he has received from xxxchurch.) Where’s he now? He’s going to a theological seminary, a dedicated follower of God! He’s changed sides. Yes, from his past, he’s got an anger problem with Christians. He’s far from perfect. (Like I am.) From what I know he experienced, I can understand. Here’s two lines from his last blog entry: (to a boyfriend of a girl that modeled for him)
“I was a very selfish person, making money at the expense of other people for so long. [...] I have no excuse, but thank God things have changed. As you know, I no longer produce porn.”
Good fruit or bad fruit?
2) xxxchurch has been inside numerous porn conventions during the last years. They have handed out 10s of thousands of Bibles to all the visitors.
Good fruit or bad fruit?
3) xxxchurch has a very active forum, where prayer requests are posted (and answered and met with prayer) every day from all over the world.
Good fruit or bad fruit?
4) xxxchurch has hosted a video post called “Pornmobile Confessions”, where, as of date, 4 young people have stated in the car in front of the camera how porn affects their lives and how they struggle. Thus, 1000’s of other young people at last have some peers and role models of other young Christians who are not afraid to talk about their personal struggles.
Good fruit or bad fruit?
5) Of the money xxxchurch has obtained, they have supported funds and programs that give direct, fast financial and moral support to porn stars and starlets who want to get out of the industry. For that purpose, they have worked closely with Shelley Lubben, a former pornstar, who has made this her primal effort.
Good fruit or bad fruit?
6) xxxchurch has designed and is freely giving away a software called X3watch, helping accountability partners get support from the PC itself to establish trusting relationships.
Good fruit or bad fruit?
In my opinion, all this proves to be good fruit. Somehow, this ministry must be blessed, must it not? I mean, if it were wrong, would it not rather make more people watch porn than less? Would God not pull his blessing hand away if it were a wrong ministry?
As I see it, fourpointer, they have done just what you recommended. They followed “the lead of Christ”, do their work “prayerfully”, with the tools of this Godly world [A penis? Godly tool? You betcha. How on earth did you get here? ((But, by the way, it is debatable whether the 30ft penis is good or not. Don't wanna crush that one right from the start.))], and thus, are doing “a great thing.” Since xxxchurch has been around for five years at least, and with the outcomes above, somehow, it didn’t “fail from the start”, did it?
thanks for reading all the rambling. I’ll turn mute again ;c)
1, January 31, 2008 at 9:56 am
Dear Jack8,
Thank you for your comment.
First I would like to say that knowledge is very, very, very important. Even Satanists, Witches, serial murderers “love”. Even Hitler loved. It’s the UNDERSTANDING of TRUTH that leads to “true love.” Doctrine defines who Jesus is and what truth is, without it you get many false Christs and many “false” truths.
Correct knowledge of what’s true is essential! Jesus said, “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” (John 17:3).
This ties into my second point: Your rundown of “good fruit” was informative. Thank you for the time you spent on that. However, the same argument of “look at my fruit” is used by cults such as the Mormons and JWs. The Mormons and JWs do many “good works” which they claim are “good fruits.” So under that argument, they too must have the truth as well as everyone else who does “good things.” So what’s more vital to our eternal souls; what we call “good fruit” or what God calls “good fruit?” Remember that a thorn bush cannot produce “good fruit.”
In the end of Matthew chapter 7, (right after Jesus talks about bearing good fruit), He tells of how those will come to Him on Judgment day pleading their case that they did this or that IN HIS NAME, yet He still sends them to Hell. Why do you suppose that is? By our standards the things they boasted they did in His name were “good fruits.”
Never forget that Jesus told us that there are many “plants” out there that the Father did not plant. And He told us that these “plants” that the Father did not plant will be uprooted (Matthew 15:13). The road to hell is paved with many good intentions.
So this leads me to ask, what is the BIBLICAL definition of fruit? (Not my opinion or your opinion of the definition of fruit).
See? This is where KNOWLEDGE (and doctrine) come in. We can both use the same words, but if their meanings are entirely different, then we just end up spinning our wheels.
In this particular argument/debate/discussion, I stick to “that’s all I need to know.” (And I continue to wonder where you draw the line on what’s acceptable and what’s not. When do we get to see the 30-foot inflatable vagina?)
I understand that you (and others) think that’s very closed minded, and I won’t deny that it is! And I make no apologies for that. When one believes the words of Jesus when He claims to be the only way to the Father, that is very closed minded too. And all the apostles were very closed minded. Truth dictates that. It wasn’t until recently that ultra-tolerance at the expense of truth has become the new norm.
So you and others like you will not agree with me and others like me on these issues. But please do not err in your judgment of us as if we’re trying to push you off the narrow path. In 2 Corinthians 13:5 the Bible tells us to daily examine ourselves to see if we’re in the faith (on that narrow path). The whole point of this blog is not to push people off of the narrow path but instead to invite them onto it and help those already on it to remain on it. We also want to encourage readers to examine themselves as we’re instructed to.
We will continue to disagree on the pragmatic methods used by XXXChurch and many other ministries, and because (as David said) this is going nowhere, I will bow out of this and give you the last word.
Thank you.
1, February 1, 2008 at 2:40 am
And this is how the ‘last word’ goes:
I am dazzled by your wits and arguments, and yet I am troubled that you’ve put considerable effort in disqualifying love. I feel that if you cast that one out, we’re not talking about a narrow path, but rather a dark tunnel.
I’m not sure I understand your second argument: If neither my opinion of good fruit nor yours matter (i.e. the places where our God-shaped minds and hearts resonate and come to the conclusion that someone is truly helped by whatever ministry and pointed to God), but only the ‘biblical’ definition of it, sounds to me like a mystery where again, no one can claim to have understood what it means lest he heaps sin on himself. Which leaves us with absolutely no means to judge another ministry and start pointing its errors out.
Be that as it may. I challenge you to come to judgments as “sick, perverse, and profane” only once you have run the fruits of xxxchurch alongside the ‘biblical’ definition of fruit. (And again, in my opinion the 30ft penis is not a fruit, what happens to the people is the fruit.)
And I challenge myself to not put tolerance over knowledge, meaning that I take special care not to manage myself into the everything-is-ok-in-the-first-place thinking, but decide along God’s definitions of ministry whether to support or abstain from a certain ministry.
Too long for a last word. Sorry.