You’ve seen the occult symbols on the Mormon temple in Salt Lake City in this previous post. Now here’s a video showing these same Satanic symbols on the Mormon temple in Nauvoo.
If you choose to do so, you can skip ahead to 2 minutes and 20 seconds into the video to begin seeing the Satanic symbols.
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1, February 3, 2008 at 8:57 pm
You might want to pick up a copy of “Symbols in Stone: Symbolism on the Early Temples of the Restoration” by Matthew B. Brown. This book clearly explains the interpretation of the symbolism of the temples of the Church.
Regarding the pentagram, Eliphas Levi (born Alphonse Louis Constant), a former Roman Catholic priest, in 1856 turned the previously harmless Jewish and Christian pentagram into a ridiculous Satanic symbol. Previous to that strange departure, the pentagram was a common symbol of Hebrews and early Christians and was used to represent the five senses, the five wounds of Christ, health, and even the heavens. A simple search on Wikipedia will tell us this much:
“Probably due to misinterpretation of symbols used by ceremonial magicians, it later became associated with Satanism and subsequently rejected by most of Christianity sometime in the twentieth century.”
Other easy Googling online reveals:
“There are many connections between the pentagram and Christianity. Before the cross, it was a preferred emblem to adorn the jewelry and amulets of early Christians (followed by an ‘x’ or a phoenix). The pentagram was associated with the five wounds of Christ, and because it could be drawn in one continuous movement of the pen, the Alpha and the Omega as one.”
“A ‘point down’ pentacle is nothing new- nor is it necessarily Satanic when it appears as such. Historical depictions of the pentagram were as likely to be points down as point up- a distinction between one or the other was rarely made by the ancients.”
“The adoption of the pentacle as a Satanic emblem is quite recent, dating only to the latter half of the twentieth century.”
“Up until medieval times, the five points of the pentagram represented the five wounds of Christ on the Cross. It was a symbol of Christ the Saviour. This is in stark contrast to today where the pentagram is criticized by modern Fundamentalist Christians, as being a symbol of evil. The church eventually chose the cross as a more significant symbol for Christianity, and the use of the pentagram as a Christian symbol gradually ceased.”
“During the times of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament), the pentacle was the first and most important of the Seven Seals - an amulet whose seals represented the seven secret names of God. It was inscribed on King Solomon’s ring, which is often called Solomon’s Seal in error. Each point of the pentagram was also interpreted as referring to the five books of the Pentateuch - the first five books in the Hebrew Scriptures; the Torah.”
“To the Hebrews the five points of the pentagram were tied to the Pentateuch (the first five books of the bible) and represented as a whole the concept of truth.”
“Perhaps most curious is the pentagram as it relates to early Christianity. Constantine the Roman Emperor who converted to Christianity chose to use the pentagram on his seal and amulet. Up until medieval times, the five points of the pentagram represented the five wounds of Christ on the Cross. During these times the pentagram carried no evil implications at all and in fact, in a lesser way than the cross, was symbolic of the Savior.”
“In the nineteenth century. Eliphas Lévi, an Occultist, was the first to adapt the inverted pentagram as symbolic of evil.”
It’s amazing what a few minutes of Google will do…
1, February 3, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Why would you people post this ridiculous nonsense?
Bryce Haymond is 100% right!
Are you trying to send the message that Mormons are Satan Worshipers?
Are you saying that the Mormon church’s agenda is to fool their followers into becoming Satanists?
I challenge the moderators of this web site to shut down this thread. You are speaking on something that you know nothing about.
1, February 4, 2008 at 5:19 am
Bryce,
I Googled your quotes. What there original source was I have no clue, but every Google result I got for these quotes were nothing more than a cutting-and-pasting of the same material. Would you please document your sources for these quotes, rather than just lift a bunch of stuff off of Wikipedia (Which is not always the best source for credible information), and Wiccan message boards.
And Joe, if you don’t like this thread, don’t read it. Unless you can’t get the person that’s making you read this to remove the gun from your head.
1, February 4, 2008 at 8:16 am
no gun to my head.
I asked a question, but since you are not going to answer it, maybe else someone will.
What is the point of this theard?
Are Mormons Satanists and they just don’t know it?
What you people are trying to do here is exactly what’s wrong with chrisianity!
I know many Mormons and I can tell you for certain that not one of them worships the devil.
The symols on their buildings have certain meaning to them. If you want to know what the meanings are, why don’t you ask THEM instead of spreading misinformation with you own misguided speculation.
What do you people think you will accomplish by speading misinformation?
1, February 4, 2008 at 8:29 am
Bryce and Joe,
I think you’re confusing Biblical Christianity and Catholocism. I’d never heard of the five wounds of Christ until I read your comment. After reading a little about it, it seems to be a Catholic thing.
After searching the internet, I found the following at http://www.spiritual.com.au/articles/witchcraft/pentagram_history.htm
“To the Gnostics, the pentagram was the ‘Blazing Star’.
For the Druids, it was a symbol of Godhead.
In Egypt, it was a symbol of the ‘underground womb’.
The Pagan Celts ascribed the pentagram to the underground goddess Morrigan.”
So, it’s been a symbol of some sickening things for a long time (long before the Salt Lake temple was built).
The cross is by far and away the main symbol of Christianity, and the Gospel. It’s used in this way in the Bible in 1 Corinthians 1:17-18, Galatians 5:11, 6:12, 14, Philippians 3:18, Colossians 2:14, etc.
So, I have a couple of questions for you. Why doesn’t Mormonism use the cross as a symbol, when it’s clearly biblical? What do you say the symbols on the temple in Nauvoo and SLC mean?
Thanks,
Bill
1, February 4, 2008 at 8:36 am
Joe,
If the Mormon God isn’t the one true God of the Bible, then they’re worshipping an idol, right?
1 Corinthians 10:19-20 says, “Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.”
I don’t think Mormons believe they’re singing to demons every Sunday morning, but the Bible says they are.
Thanks,
Bill
1, February 4, 2008 at 8:37 am
Oh really!!??? Joe M
The Nauvoo temple is covered with Pagan/Occult Symbols inside and out.
If you want to learn more about them click on my name go on the website at the bottom first row of pictures middle one, take a long look at the Nauvoo temple.
Then come back and explain why they are there and what goes on inside every Mormon temple.
1, February 4, 2008 at 11:17 am
fourpointer,
That’s exactly what I did. I cut and paste from many different sites around the internet. Anyone who does a simple search for “pentagram” will find the same material all over the net. It isn’t hard to find, and this isn’t a scholarly paper. I even found that the pentagram was used as the seal of the city of Jerusalem for a time. Is Jerusalem Satanic too?
The most incredible thing is that you will deny as the day is long that the pentagram was ever used as a symbol by Christians.
Bill,
We don’t use the cross as a symbol because we choose to focus on the life and resurrection of the Savior, rather than His death. He lives today, He is not dead! He conquered death. “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” (1 Cor. 15:55). It would probably surprise you to find out that the early Christians did not use the symbol of the cross much either until about the second century.
1, February 4, 2008 at 12:21 pm
Bill, what you said is kinda my point. These symbols mean different things to different people. You obviously have no clue as to what these symbols mean to Mormons, but who in the world are you people to make a video of symbols on a temple, make up what you think it means and use that to convince people that Mormanism is a Satanic cult or something???
To be honest, I have NO CLUE what the point of this is!
This will be the THIRD time I’ve asked these simple questions…
What is the point of this thread?
What do you want people to think of Mormons as a result of that video?
Are we to believe that they are Satanists?
Helen, I am not a Mormon, so I certainly can not comment on the exact meaning of their symbols or on what goes on inside their temple. Oh, wait a minute… You’re not a Mormon either, and you clearly have NO IDEA why the adorn their temples with those symbols, so who are you to comment on them????
THAT IS MY POINT
YOU ARE BEING SPECULATIVE AND WILLFULLY SPREADING MISINFORMATION
YOU DON’T EVEN WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH!
You are telling people what the symbols mean to YOU when you should be trying to find out what the symbols mean to THEM!
NOW, WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTIONS?
1, February 4, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Bryce,
Paul is an early Christian, and I gave you verses where he used the cross as a symbol of Christianity and the Gospel. Anyone who reads the Bible is going to end up identifying the cross as a symbol.
1 Corinthians 1:18 says, “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” If the cross is foolishness to you, what does that indicate about you? Perishing means going to hell. Please think seriously about this. Do you think you deserve to go to hell/outer darkness?
A star or pentagram or any symbol doesn’t mean the same thing in all contexts. I have no doubt (as the guys in the video said) that Mormons are not intentionally worshipping Satan, or using horrible symbols all over their temple.
I had Mormon missionaries tell me that God has a physical body about my height, so it’s clear that they’re worshipping a different Father than I am. I worship the Father who is spirit (John 4:24). One of us is worshipping demon gods. I contend that you are worshipping demons. I’m not saying you do it knowingly or intentionally, but if you are, wouldn’t it stand to reason that demonic doctrines and symbols would creep into your religion?
Thanks,
Bill
1, February 4, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Bill, your point is invalid. In the scripture you reference, the greek word for “cross” is STAUROS. According to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, The correct translation for this word would be “upright pole or stake”. The secondary meaning of “cross” is a later rendering acording to Greek lexicons and dictionaries.
In fact, the cross is indeed a Pagan symbol which predates christianity.
If you think I just made that up, Please reference:
An Illustrated Encyclopedia of Traditional Symbols
also… Dictionary of Mythology Folklore and Symbols
There you will find that the cross meant “everlasting Father Sun”
Bill, you said, “wouldn’t it stand to reason that demonic doctrines and symbols would creep into your religion”
What does this say about christianity in light of the fact that the cross was once a Pagan symbol???
1, February 4, 2008 at 1:10 pm
One more thing, Bill. I want to thank you for answering my questions.
I got it now…
Mormons are Demon worshipers, they just don’t know it!
It makes perfect sense!
Thanks bud!!!
1, February 4, 2008 at 1:11 pm
This video has a pretty interesting perspective on the “cross” and it even uses humor to do make its point.
1, February 4, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Basically, there are two ways to look at the situation. Here’s how the logic flows, depending on whether or not you think the symbols on the Nauvoo Temple are satanic or not. You can decide for yourself which one makes the most sense.
Symbols are Satanic
1. Mormon Church is secretly satanic.
2. Mormon Church does not want members to know they are worshipping Satan.
3. Mormon Church prominently displays satanic symbols on temples - apparently hidden in plain sight.
Symbols are not Satanic
1. Mormon Church does not teach or practice satanism.
2. Symbols on temples have a different meaning to Mormons that is not satanic.
Unless you believe that the symbols have some kind of power in and of themseleves (i.e. looking at a representation of an enlongated star will make you commit evil deeds), one has to allow for the possibility that symbols mean different things to different people. If that is the case, then projecting one’s own biases onto those symbols without examining what they mean to the people using the symbols is meaningless when it comes to understanding the meaning and intent behind the symbols.
Anyone who wants to do even a cursory amount of research on the history of symbols like the pentagram will find that they have been used extensively in many contexts, including both pagan and Christian contexts. The use of the pentagram in satanism is a relatively recent phenomenon. One can also find out what these symbols mean from the Mormon perspective.
On the other hand, if you want to believe Mormons are satanists, you will see whatever you want to see in the symbols used on the temple. I think that is where we’re at with this thread.
1, February 4, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Bill,
Of course the cross is a symbol. But as the early Christians viewed it, it depicts a purposely painful and gruesome method of public execution, the very method that the Lord and Savior was brutally killed. The early Christians didn’t like flaunting it, and neither do we. We prefer to focus on the living Christ, not the dead one.
What Paul meant by his use of the word “cross” is the Atonement and gospel of Jesus Christ, and His eternal sacrifice. We believe in Christ’s Atonement, His sacrifice, His gospel, and His death on the cross. But we do not like to use the cross as a symbol because it is the very method by which the Savior of the world was killed. We much prefer to think of the life of Christ, and that He is living today. If you had a very close friend who was killed by hanging, would you display a noose proudly? If a family member was killed by stabbing, would you display a knife to remember him by? In similar regard, we do not display the cross of Christ as a symbol of Him whom we worship as the beloved Redeemer of mankind.
I’m not sure how you reason that God does not have a physical body. If you truly believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, then you believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all the same being. If that being is Jesus Christ, and he resurrected with a body of flesh and bones, then how does He now not have the same body with which he resurrected? (Luke 24:39)
1, February 4, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Good points Jigglewick.
Obviously, anyone who wants to project what they think the symbols of the temple represent may do so. But to the Latter-day Saints, they symbolize Christ and His gospel. And since it is the Latter-day Saints that are using the symbols, it might be more instructive to examine what they mean to the LDS.
1, February 4, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Jiggles, You put it better than I could Thank You!!!
Bryce, isn’t it a shame that you have to come to websites like this one to deffend your religion?
I do not have a problem with people who have religious convictions.
I DO have a problem with people attacking other religious groups ESPECIALLY when they are only spreading misinformation!
Bryce said “Him whom we worship as the beloved Redeemer of mankind.
HE WORSHIP THE SAME DUDE YOU GUYS DO!!!
Even if the Mormon church is FULL of faults, how could GOD find fault with him and send him off to Hell? His intentions are pure. He worships christ! He’s done no wrong.
1, February 4, 2008 at 1:36 pm
“Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution” (2 Tim. 3:12).
We aren’t going to get away from it, so I do my best to confront it and defend against it. Misconceptions and untruths can do much damage.
1, February 4, 2008 at 1:44 pm
I could tell you what the symbols mean to Mormons, having looked into the matter in some detail, but it would be pointless. Those who have already decided the symbols are satanic, like the two men in the video, will simply dismiss the explanation as a lie to cover the “real” satanic meaning. Therefore, I will just sit back and enjoy all the wild speculation.
1, February 4, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Like I said in the beginning of this thread, a good book on the subject is “Symbols in Stone: Symbolism on the Early Temples of the Restoration” by Matthew B. Brown. This book clearly explains many of the symbols on the temples of the Church.
1, February 4, 2008 at 1:48 pm
But you are right, it will make little difference to those who have already shrugged them off as satanic.
1, February 4, 2008 at 1:52 pm
A gentle reminder as to who began persecuting who.
1, February 4, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Yes, we spend all day every day persecuting those who worship Jesus Christ, especially since that is He whom we love and adore. I’m glad you brought that up. Fortunately, we still give them the benefit of a doubt that they are still, in fact, Christians.
1, February 4, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Yup, Pilgrim. Mormons believe their religion is correct. I wouldn’t put it quite like those quotes, but that’s just me.
Some of those quotes are regrettable, but I think it is natural in the early, formative years of any religious movement to emphasize differences with existing religious groups. After all, one doesn’t attract converts by saying, “Hey, we’re just like those other guys. Come join us.”
This phenomenon was evident in the early Christian church as numerous anti-Jewish sects sprang up, including some who where so vehemently anti-Jewish that they even rejected the Old Testament as scripture.
Thanks for sharing that though. In reality, it has been a two-way street in the past, something Mormons don’t always understand or acknowledge. However, I think in the last half-century, it has become pretty much a one-way street, with Mormons much more on the receiving end.
1, February 4, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Thanks for your comment Jigglewick.
You may not put it quite that way (attacking Christians in that manner), but your “inspired” prophets did. In fact isn’t that what God and Jesus supposedly told Joesph Smith in the woods? Wasn’t that the whole reason for the LDS organization? So back-peddling now to soften the blow is useless.
And you said: “After all, one doesn’t attract converts by saying, ‘Hey, we’re just like those other guys. Come join us.’” But isn’t this exactly what Mormonism’s PR campaign has done over the last decade, and isn’t this what you’re saying? We all worship the same Jesus, can’t we all just get along?
Christians will continue to defend the faith from false teachings whether it be in the form of Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholicism, etc. Just as your organization will continue sending out missionaries to spread LDS teachings because (under all the sweet talk) they believe Christianity is apostate and that there is no salvation outside the LDS Church. (I know you wouldn’t put it that way).
“The Christian God is the Mormon’s Devil.”
Mormon Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses,Volume 5, Page 331
1, February 4, 2008 at 2:41 pm
For those of you interested in additonal exposes of Mormon beliefs and practices, I offer the following recent examples:
Mormon Church hierarchy performing child sacrifice, cannibalism and tantric sex in the Salt Lake Temple:
http://www.exposingsatanism.org/mormons.htm
Mormons planning takeover of government, buying up U.S. farmland in conspiracy to control food supply, will impose mark of beast on non-mormons and other interesting allegations:
http://truthseeker2473.blogspot.com/2008/01/mitt-romneys-bizarre-beliefs.html
Enjoy.
1, February 4, 2008 at 2:42 pm
You are right, Pilgrim. Christians will continue to defend the faith, which is exactly what I am doing.
1, February 4, 2008 at 2:46 pm
“We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense. . . . It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century.”
Mormon Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Volume 6, Page 167
There’s no better defense than offense, huh?
1, February 4, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Yes, and you say the same about us, now don’t you. So what makes either of us better? I’ll tell you one thing, I don’t post defamations of other religions on the internet, for starters.
1, February 4, 2008 at 3:06 pm
No, Bryce, you personally may not, but on this blog we do expose false teachings and heresy.
If I had a nickle for every time someone came in here and told me what I should or should not blog about, I’d be rich. You have your blog and choose to post whatever you want, whereas I post what I want here. It’s the free marketplace of ideas.
Your founding prophet Joseph Smith chose a unique way to handle people like me. Instead of taking criticism like a prophet, he used a little thing called arson to silence his detractors. Remember the Nauvoo Expositor Press?
1, February 4, 2008 at 3:18 pm
It is a free marketplace of ideas. Unfortunately, your ideas are very pessimistic with regard to your fellow man. Fortunately, we seek higher things:
“We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.”
Actually, Joseph Smith lived and died like a prophet, the Expositor incident leading to that death, and sealed his testimony with his blood.
1, February 4, 2008 at 3:35 pm
OK Bryce, you can continue in your character assassination of me as you try to present yourself as pure and innocent as the wind-driven snow; have at it.
But you know as well as I do that Mormonism is replete with ugliness, including the truth surrounding Joseph Smith’s death. You can paint the picture to your liking all day long, but anyone who’s serious about the truth will examine the evidence and will come away with an entirely different view of Mormonism than what you’re trying to depict. And that is why a blog like this is seen as such a threat to you.
If you’ve noticed, a great portion of my posts on here about Mormonism are simply your own organization’s teachings. Letting LDS speak for themselves is not only very revealing, it sends LDS apologists into a tizzy. There’s got to be something wrong when a church hates you quoting them.
Contrary to what you may believe, I do not delight in “arguing.” I will continue to post quotes from Mormonism and let the chips fall where they may. Let the readers decide for themselves. You can continue to attack me for “attacking” LDS but as you can see, it hasn’t gotten either side very far.
- The Pilgrim
P.S. It’s been over two months since I posted some of Joseph Smith’s false prophecies, yet not one Mormon has tried to defend it. But I post a video showing pentagrams on a temple and I incur the wrath of Mormons. I wonder why the imbalance.
1, February 4, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Pilgrim,
Backpeddling? I’m afraid you have misunderstood my comments. Allow me to respond to a few of your points.
1. Inspired and infallible are two different things. Mormons do not believe in infallible or perfect prophets. We believe that all prophets, whether from biblical or modern times, are mortal men who have faults, biases and prejudices. Brigham Young is a good example. Clearly, as the quote you highlighted shows, he wasn’t so hot on the orthodox Christianity of his day, but then again, neither was Thomas Jefferson and a whole host of other people.
2. The LDS Church’s PR campaign is designed to combat misinformation that is being spread by anti-Mormon ministries and other critics of the LDS faith. This thread is a good example. The point of the PR campaign is not to say that Mormon beliefs are exactly the same as traditional Christianity. Mormons don’t want to be viewed as the same, because we are not. We do have some significant differences in belief.
For instance, I have trouble accepting the belief held by many mainstream Christians that a just, all-knowing God knows in advance that certain people (most, actually) are going to go to hell, but creates them anyway — and then sends them to hell to endure exquisite suffering for all eternity. Sorry. but I can’t make sense of such a doctrine.
So no, Mormons don’t want to be known as the same as other Christians. However, we have issues with very narrow and self-serving definitions of the term “Christian”.
3. You seem to fancy yourself a bit of an expert on Mormonism, but your claim that Mormons believe there is no salvation outside of the LDS Church is incorrect. More informed critics usually focus on the more universal salvation taught by the LDS Church. LDS doctrine teaches that because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, all men (except for a small number of sons of perdition) will be resurrected and receive a measure heavenly glory. That includes you, Pilgrim.
1, February 4, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Pilgrim, I’m sure you are a great person, with good intentions and desires. I am not trying to assassinate your character, but I do believe you are trying to assassinate my faith. I don’t like that. I don’t know how any good can come of that. I will defend my faith, for I believe that it is the true faith of Jesus Christ.
Mormonism is not replete with ugliness. Joseph Smith was murdered in cold blood. In fact, he was assassinated, a little known fact since he was a presidential candidate at the time. The fact that he might have been trying to protect himself in the moment that a mob was attacking him does not discredit his calling as a prophet of God in the least.
Our critics are the ones that try to depict Mormonism as everything that it is not. If you ask any Mormon what their religion is like you will get a very different picture than what our enemies paint. The reason is pretty clear; they want to destroy our church. But it can’t be destroyed, because it is the work of God. This is His Church. Christ is at the head of it, and leads it through revelation to living prophets and apostles. He has promised that it will continue onward until He comes again and the work is done.
Yes, your posts take quotes from LDS leaders, but how often are they taken out of the context? Often there is no regard for the person, the time, the culture, the situation, the right of the person has to an opinion, further revelation on the subject after that fact, possible error in transcription, mountains of LDS scholarly work on the subject, and other factors which influence understanding.
I would much prefer good doctrinal dialogue than bantering and bickering back and forth. But it would help if there wasn’t preconceived notions of evil which stand in the way of good discussion.
1, February 4, 2008 at 4:03 pm
On the subject of “there is no salvation outside of the LDS Church”, I might note that most of the work we do in our temples is for people who lived their entire mortal lives in other faiths besides LDS. Do we believe that they can obtain the highest reward of salvation in the kingdom of God? Absolutely.
1, February 4, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Thank you for your comment Jigglewick. I will try to answer your main points.
1. I do agree with you. Prophets are mere men, and capable of being wrong. With that in mind, was there ever a time (like BY) that Joseph Smith was wrong or any of the other prophets when they spoke for the Lord? If so, how does one differentiate between their errors and the truth?
2. Yes, we both know that we have different beliefs, but when I keep hearing Mormons (and those who claim to not be Mormons but defend everything Mormons believe) say that we worship the same Jesus, I do not buy that. The Jesus of Christianity and the Jesus of Mormonism are entirely different.
3. I have never claimed to be a “Mormon expert” but I admit I have spent a lot of time studying Mormonism, of which most of those studies came from Mormon published and distributed literature and books.
Now regarding the doctrine of no salvation outside the LDS church; it’s interesting that you commented on that. You are correct, LDS does have a very universal view of salvation (and I do like how you say that those other critics are “more informed”).
The truth is, this is another example of the ever-changing teachings and beliefs of Mormonism. As of late, LDS has pushed a more universalist-leaning salvation message (another PR move to make the church more palatable) but when one looks at the earlier teachings of your church, they see an entirely different view of salvation. At the risk of sounding “more informed” than those other critics, allow me to cite a few examples:
We declare it to all the inhabitants of the earth from the valleys in the tops of these mountains that we are the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—not a church but the church—and we have the doctrine of life and salvation for all the honest-in-heart in all the world. Who else has got it? Is it to be found in the creeds of Christendom? It is not.
Brigham Young
Journal of Discourses
Volume 12 Page 173
1868
Every intelligent person under the heavens that does not, when informed, acknowledge that Joseph Smith, jun., is a Prophet of God, is in darkness, and is opposed to us and to Jesus and his kingdom on the earth.
Brigham Young
Journal of Discourses
Volume 8 Page 223
1860
Whosoever confesseth that Joseph Smith was sent of God to reveal the holy Gospel to the children of men, and lay the foundation for gathering Israel, and building up the Kingdom of God on the earth, that spirit is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Antichrist, no matter whether it is found in a pulpit or on a throne.
Brigham Young
Discourses of Brigham Young
Page 435
The true gospel of Jesus Christ was restored to earth in the last days through the instrumentality of Joseph Smith. It is found only in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Bruce R. McConkie
Mormon Doctrine
Page 334
1966 Edition
If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, pp. 1-350.)
Bruce R. McConkie
Mormon Doctrine
Page 670
1966 Edition
[The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is] the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth…
Joseph Smith Bruce R. McConkie
Doctrine and Covenants 1:30 Mormon Doctrine
Section 1:30 Page 136
November 01, 1831 1966 Edition
In a revelation given by Joseph Smith in 1831—labeled by the Lord, “My preface unto the book of commandments”—Jesus declared that the Church He had established through the American Prophet was “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth.”
Milton R. Hunter
The Gospel Through The Ages
Page 288
1945
[The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is] the only Church which has the power to save and exalt men in the hereafter.
Bruce R. McConkie
Mormon Doctrine
Page 136
1966 Edition
There is no salvation outside this one true church, the church of Jesus Christ [of Latter-day Saints].
Bruce R. McConkie
Mormon Doctrine
Pages 138
1966 Edition
And it came to pass that he [an angel] said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abdominal church, which is the mother of abominations, whose foundation is the devil. And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
Book of Mormon
1 Nephi 14:9-10
1, February 4, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Actually, the doctrine of universal salvation comes from D&C 76 (recorded in 1832). Thanks for your comments though.
1, February 4, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Dear Bryce & Jigglewick,
All quotes are in context and I cite where they can be found if investigators wish to research for themselves. This way when someone says I took it out of context, it can be easily verified that I did not.
Thanks for the D&C 76 suggestion. However, am I now supposed to ignore all those other quotes?
See, it’s like nailing jell-o to a wall with LDS doctrine. As soon as someone cites one thing here, you guys cite something else over there, all the while ignoring the fact that your teachings are contradicting each other.
I do not have any ill-will toward either of you and think you guys have the best of intentions as well. I honestly believe that you believe what you believe with all your heart (that was a lot of “believes”
but at the core of the debate, we both can’t be right. One of us is following a false prophet, a false Christ, a false church. I believe it is Mormonism that is false, you (or at least your earlier prophets did) believe that orthodox Christianity is false.
So, at this point, I will go about my business of posting on LDS teachings and you guys can continue about your business. We will certainly not agree, but I have enough faith in my “fellow man” that given enough evidence, they can weigh it all out and come to a reasonable conclusion as to which is preaching “another gospel” (Galatians 1).
Sincerely,
- The Pilgrim
1, February 4, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Pilgrim,
There are a few issues you need to consider if you want to understand the Mormon perspective (although I’m still not convinced you do — it appears you simply want to disprove it, even if it comes at the expense of truth as in this whole business about satanic symbols on the Nauvoo Temple).
1. D&C 76 is authoritative LDS doctrine and scripture. Quotes from Mormon Doctrine and Journal of Discourses are not. LDS folks understand that.
2. The quotes you list above are not necessarily contradictory. The term “salvation” is heavily nuanced in LDS theology. Sometimes it is used to refer to universal salvation as described above. Other times, it is used to refer to the highest level of salvation Mormons refer to as “exaltation”, often depending on the context and the audience. Again, LDS folks know what they are hearing when they hear it, because generally, they understand the nuances of the term as it is used in Mormonism.
3. I do not have to justify or explain every quote by every leader of the LDS Church. Some of them got it wrong on various matters. For example, Bruce R. McConkie was censured by President David O. McKay because of some of the things he wrote in Mormon Doctrine.
I’ve enjoyed our conversation. Perhaps we can explore some of the early teachings of the Christian church sometime (pre-Nicea). I think that might be instructive with respect to your last comment.
Best of luck to you.
1, February 4, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Well, from what I have read, I would say that by far the Mormon gentlemen who have participated in this discussion have been very kind, polite, informative and have done a very good job of defending their position.
On the other hand, may of the comments made by christians thus far have been mean spirited, condesending and rude. The typical “We’re going to heaven and you’re not… neener, neener” type filth that i’m so used to hearing from you poeple.
Pilgrim, how does this kind of behavior further your cause?
How does this video further your cause?
Within the context of this very discussion, it has been PROVEN that the symbols on that temple do not have Satanic meaning to Mormon people. Rather than defend your position, you chose to take this thread way off track. You have yet to present us with so much as what the POINT OF THIS VIDEO IS!!!
So please sir, sum it up. What does the video mean? What does it prove? Will you admit that you were mistaken as to the meaning of these symbols???
This was an inerresting topic. Can you please get it back on track?
1, February 4, 2008 at 7:20 pm
Dear Joe “I swear I’m not a Mormon, I’m not, I’m not, I’m not” M.,
Thanks for your unbias play-by-play on who on this thread was naughty and who was nice. I’m certain those reviewing your comments will find the most acidic venom came from yourself. You may want to review how you came in here with your guns blazing.
I am sorry if you haven’t figured out yet the connection between the pentagrams and Mormonism. Let me break it down:
If Mormonism is a false religion based on a false prophet who received a false revelation from An Angel of Light, then you do the math! If it’s not of God, who else or what else would be its source? Now I know that you disagree with that view of Mormonism, but the point is not whether you agree with it or disagree with it, the point is that I am merely trying to explain this perspective to you because you are having such a difficult time understanding the connection.
With that said, do I honestly believe your average everyday Mormon believes he is worshiping Satan, of course not, so please don’t go to that extreme to muddy the water.
Now I’ve given the other two gentleman the last word on this, and I will extend the same courtesy to you. But may I also offer you a piece of advice?
You guys seriously need to come up with another plan of attack. Your tactics are getting very predictable.
I go for weeks with hardly any comments form Mormons, then all of a sudden I get spammed with Mormon comments all at once (coincidence) and in that gaggle of Mormons there’s always one that claims to not be a Mormon (coincidence) and he always comes in the same group (coincidence) at the same time (coincidence) and comments on the very same post (coincidence).
I refer to him as the Designated Commenter (DC).He’s the guy that gets the short end of the straw and has to “play” the neutral guy who is so valiant in his honesty he can’t help but defend the LDS position on every single point (coincidence) from those mean Christians. But every single time the DC ends up overplaying his role and gives away his true intentions. It’s very predictable.
I’ve also come to notice that the DC is usually the guy that is the most rude and vitriolic of the group and always favors the LDS side, of course. (And yes, there are Mormons who come in here and aren’t a part of these groups; I’m not talking about them).
Perhaps staggering your appearances will help disguise your plan. Or even a little less venom from the “neutral guy” may help. Or try having the DC disagree on something in LDS. It will go much further in convincing people that you are not bias.
This wave of Mormon spam will pass, like all the others, and a new wave will come in time with a new “I’m not a Mormon but they’re all right and you’re wrong” DC.
The screen names may change but the tactics remain the same.
With all that said, I give you the last word as I move on. Good night.
Sincerely,
- The Pilgrim
1, February 4, 2008 at 9:14 pm
You are too funny!
I can see how you might think I am a Mormon as I took their side on this one.
The only thing I ever came out against is the deliberate spreding of misinformation.
You still refuse to accept that perhaps the mormons have (and had) something different in mind than Satanism with respect to the use of these symbols.
I’d like to tell you a little about myself if you don’t mind.
I’d been a born again chrisian since birth for almost 30 years (I am now 43 years old)! My grand father was a minister, My father was a deacon of our church, I was raised a good christian boy and was always very involved in my church. I would argue bitterly against my mormon friends, my catholic friends, my jehova witness friends, my jewish friends, hindu, bhudist, you name it! I was 100% convicted in my faith! I was right and they all had it wrong. I was going to heaven and they were all destined to burn in hell for eternity. This is not a very comforting thing to think about your closest friends, is it?
I started to contemplate how god could send these good people to the hot place when all they’ve done is follow faithfuly the tenants of the religion that they were brought up in, just as I had done. As I started to doubt my beliefs… one day a book showed up on a coffee table at work. It is titled Christian Fictions (I think). I didn’t even make it half way through this book before I came to the realization that I had it wrong all these years.
I found that it is simple to poke holes in christianity and the bible just a I had been poking holes in other religions for so many years.
Now that I have become an athiest (not a mormon, sir. An ATHIEST) and I am no longer confined in that little box of christianity, I find it dispicable when people like you just want to sit around and critisize other people’s faiths. I do not think for a second that you are doing christianity any favors with this your little hate campaign.
You may see me as being a hypocite because I once did the exact same things you are doing here. I have great regret for treating my friends the way I did and for trying to convert them repeatedly when they wanted nothing to do with it. I have since apologized to them for the horrible things I preached to them.
As I stated, I have no problem with people pf faith, whatever that faith might be. I do have a problem with you for spreading misleading information in the name of doing god’s work or whatever… That’s why I came in with my “guns a blazin’ ”
Your attitude is dreadfull! I feel so very sorry for the good people who may visit your web site seeking acurate information. Unfortunately they will be mislead due to your egotistical close-mindedness.
Religions fighting against each other the way you promote on this web site is precisely what drive people like me AWAY from christianity. Above I stated, “How does this help your cause?” Trust me, you attitude hurts your cause far more than you will ever understand. I and millions like me are proof of the validity of that statement.
Anyway, last word means nothing to me. You or aynyone else is more than welcome to comment. I’ll even tone it down a notch. LOL
1, February 4, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Mormons are sly sneaky little critters aren’t they?
1, February 4, 2008 at 10:46 pm
why do I even try…
1, February 5, 2008 at 7:05 am
Pilgrim,
For what it’s worth, I found this thead from a Google blog search. I have never posted on this site before.
Your comments about Mormon posters sound rather conspiratorial. It’s difficult to carry on a rational discussion with someone who believes, without any prior experience with you, that you are deceptive or a “sneaky little critter”, or worse yet, satanic.
Also, if you post an attack on someone’s religion and then regard the comments you receive as “spamming”, then perhaps this whole blogging thing isn’t for you.
1, February 5, 2008 at 8:28 am
Hello,
We know Jesus wasn’t crucified on a stake, because He had nail marks (plural) in his hands from the nails (plural, John 20:25). We know He wasn’t crucified on an X shape cross, because there was a sign nailed to the cross above Him. Are there any other possible shaped crosses?
I love the cross, because Jesus’ death means my eternal life. The greatest act of love was performed on the cross by God Almighty (John 15:13). “But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed” (Isaiah 53:5). Are you trusting in the blood of Jesus, and nothing else?
Great video, Pilgrim. I’m putting it in my Youtube favorites.
Thanks,
Bill
1, February 5, 2008 at 8:57 am
Bill,
As has already been pointed out, the gentlemen in the video have no idea why the symbols are on the temple or what they mean. The even admit as much at 6:08. Basically, it’s 9 minutes of speculation. And yet, I’m sure you find the video authoritative, because it confirms what you already believe about Mormons.
I too will be adding this to my YouTube favorites, but for different reasons.
1, February 5, 2008 at 11:08 am
Jigglewick,
I asked Bryce and Joe what the symbols mean in the 5th comment (42 comments ago). I’ve read all of the comments, and no one attempted to answer. Bryce urges people to buy a book. You say you’re not going to lower yourself to our level by bothering to tell us (1:44 pm Feb 4 comment). You’ll forgive me if I have doubts about why suns, moons and pentagrams would be on a Mormon temple.
Jesus created everything by Himself (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Isaiah 44:24). He created you, me, and Satan, and He isn’t any of our brothers. There is only one God any time and any place (Isaiah 43:10). This means you can’t become a god if you’re a good enough Mormon. The problem with that is that there are no good Mormons. No one is good (Luke 18:19), our hearts are desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9), we’re born enemies with God (Colossians 1:21), spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1), and a child of the devil (John 8:44).
You might not believe that, but you can test yourself on the Ten Commandments. Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever stolen anything? Have you ever looked at someone with lust? If you have, you’re an adulterer (Matt. 5:28), thief and liar. You’ve broken God’s law, and just like any guilty criminal, you must be punished. You must be perfect to get to heaven (Matt 5:48). Do you believe you deserve to go to hell (along with me)?
Jesus died for your sin, but if you don’t have a proper belief in Him, or if you’re trusting in your own good works (LDS Article of Faith #3) rather than Jesus alone, you can’t go to heaven (John 8:24, Galatians 3:10). Please think about this. I’m not saying it to be mean. I want to see you in heaven.
Thanks,
Bill
1, February 5, 2008 at 11:44 am
since you’ve watched the video 1000 times by now, the least you cound do is pay a little closer attention to what gas been stated in the comments.
I responded directly to that question as it was asked by you and Helen.
Here is the quote:
“I am not a Mormon, so I certainly can not comment on the exact meaning of their symbols or on what goes on inside their temple. Oh, wait a minute… You’re not a Mormon either, and you clearly have NO IDEA why the adorn their temples with those symbols, so who are you to comment on them????”
How could I more honestly answer your question than that?!?!?!?
Moreover, Bryce answered that question before you even asked it
Quote:
“Up until medieval times, the five points of the pentagram represented the five wounds of Christ on the Cross. It was a symbol of Christ the Saviour. This is in stark contrast to today where the pentagram is criticized by modern Fundamentalist Christians, as being a symbol of evil. The church eventually chose the cross as a more significant symbol for Christianity, and the use of the pentagram as a Christian symbol gradually ceased.”
If you think that is an incorrect statement, prove it. Counter it. There apears to be much refrence material that states exactly what Bryce said. Why then would any so called christian be surprised that it is used by other christian groups when we know it has historcally been a christian symbol?
Sad thing is that the point has been PROVEN over and over and over, but you will continue to spread your misinformation as though you have a clue what you’re talking about.
SAD SAD SAD
1, February 5, 2008 at 11:55 am
OK, Bill, I’ll help you out on the symbols, but you could have found out for yourself with a little bit of honest research. According to Wandle Mace, a foreman who worked on the original Nauvoo Temple, Joseph Smith directed that the appearance of the temple, including the positioning of the sun, moon and stars, be a representation of Revelation 12:1:
“And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.”
Not nearly as exciting as satanism, but there you have it. It was meaningful to the folks who built the Nauvoo Temple as a symbol of the church and the coming forth of the gospel.
It should be noted that the pentagram was not considered a satanic symbol in Joseph Smith’s day. Nor does it necessarily have to be considered as such today. Like any symbol, it can be used for good or evil.
I hope that helps.
1, February 5, 2008 at 4:19 pm
It might be interesting to note that the Wilshire Jewish Temple in Los Angeles had a large inverted pentagram above the front door when it was built. Here is a photo from 1862:
http://www.wilshireboulevardtemple.org/common/viewphoto.php?id=248
Do you believe the Jews are satanic too? Or are you willing to submit that this symbol had a different meaning to most at one time?
1, February 5, 2008 at 5:51 pm
If anyone wants to know what the pentagram really represents to the LDS and it’s historical meaning, I recommend the following study by Matthew B. Brown:
http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/Stars.pdf
1, February 6, 2008 at 8:58 am
Jigglewick and Bryce,
Thanks for the explanation and the links. That seems like a pretty good explanation.
What do you think about the other stuff I asked about? There are plenty of contradictions between the Bible and LDS doctrine. Do you realize that you’re betting your eternity on the reliability of Joseph Smith? The Bible is clear about what will happen to you if he was wrong. The stakes are extremely high. Are you sure you’re willing to bet everything on Joseph Smith?
Thanks,
Bill
1, February 6, 2008 at 9:13 am
Yes, I’m willing to bet eternity on Joseph Smith, because I know that he was a prophet of God. Just like we both bet our eternity on the Bible which was also written by prophets of God. I have just extended my bet to modern-day prophets, while you reject them.
What may seem like contradictions between the Bible and LDS doctrine are really misunderstandings. Indeed, the Bible shows contradictions with itself. Is that cause to dismiss it?
1, February 6, 2008 at 11:39 am
Bill,
I appreciate your sincere and heartfelt concern for my eternal well-being. In answer to your question, I believe that salvation comes through Christ; specifically, that Christ’s atonement and resurrection provide the gifts of forgiveness for sins and triumph over death. Only Christ can provide that. It is not something we can achieve on our own.
The critic will parse what I just said and accuse me of either a) being dishonest and lying about what I believe or b) being ignorant of LDS teachings, and he will be incorrect on both counts.
There are several underlying assumptions in your last comment that I don’t share. For example, your question about relying on Joseph Smith implies what I view as a false dichotomy: either I can be a Christian and enjoy the gift of salvation, or I can be LDS, but I can’t be both. I do not view the two as being mutually exclusive.
You also make some assumptions about contradictions between the Bible and LDS doctrine and the nature of hell that I probably do not share. I think I understand your position, having heard and read the arguments many times, but I think there is another perspective. I have religious, scriptural and philosophical reasons for my position.
This is a departure from the topic of this thread and a potentially lengthy conversation, so if you’d like to know what I think about the questions you asked, feel free to contact me at ordinarymormon@gmail.com and we can carry on that conversation via email. I would be happy to have a thoughtful and respectful dialog with you on the subject if you so choose. I have no interest in persuading you to accept my way of thinking, but I think I can provide you with a perspective that may help clear up some potential misperceptions you may have about the LDS faith.
It’s up to you, of course, but I always welcome a constructive and friendly exchange of views.
Thanks.
1, February 6, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Bryce,
There are no contradictions in the Bible. I can find the answer to whatever contradiction you think there may be.
Thanks,
Bill
1, February 6, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Matthew and Luke give two contradictory genealogies for Joseph (Matthew 1:2-17 and Luke 3:23-38). They cannot even agree on who the father of Joseph was…
This is the first one I stumbled accross. There are more, but let’s take it one at a time.
I might suggest starting a new topic for this as it would be an interresting discussion but is far off topic…
I’m happy to see that Bryce and Jiggles were able to put the myth to bed regarding the “Satanic” symbols that started this thread. I am sorry if I offended anyone. I can be a jerk sometimes, LOL
1, February 6, 2008 at 7:37 pm
The truth of Mormonism is hard to face sometimes, but facts are facts!
Jay in this video is standing in front of the Nauvoo temple speaking to the issue of Pagan/Occult Symbols.
John 8:32
1, February 6, 2008 at 7:58 pm
Bill,
Exactly. There aren’t any contradictions between the Bible and the Book of Mormon either. I can find the answer to whatever contradiction you think there may be between the two.
Helen,
Yes, facts are facts. If you’ve followed this thread at all, you will realize that the pentagram, as well as other symbols on the temple, are not the pagan/occult symbols that Jay thinks they are. The pentagram was reinterpreted as a satanic symbol in a nineteenth century. Before that time it meant all types of things good and bad, including being used by the early Christians to represent Jesus Christ.
1, February 7, 2008 at 7:19 am
Joe,
This whole “two different genealogies” things has been put to bed long ago. Matthew’s account traces Jesus’ lineage back through Joseph. Notice, Matthew says that “Jacob begat Joseph…”
However, Luke traces it back through Mary. A literal interpretation of Luke 3:23 would read, “This same Jesus began year thirty [of His life], being, as it were, regarded as [Greek: enomizeto--regarded by custom] the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat…” In other words, Jesus was considered to be the “son of Lehi” and the “son of Matthat”, etc, just as He was considered “Son of David.”
Of their previous descendants, space does not allow to go into such factors as adoption, Levirate marriages, ameness of names, etc.
1, February 7, 2008 at 8:32 am
That arguement make no sense. Any body withan open mind rejects the notion that Luke traces back through Mary. The bible does not mention Mary at all and explicitly states that this is Joseph geneology. “Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Janna, the son of Joseph…” useing the word “Regarded” changes nothing and making up the word “considered” shows only that you are willing to reword scriputure.
More important is the reason for the geneology. You can not deny that the porpose of the geneology in both Mathew and Luke is to prove Jesus’ is a direct desendant of King David in order to fullfil mesianic prophecy. How would this be accomplished through Mary?
Paul says that Jesus “was born of the seed of David”. Seed is transtated from the greek word “sperma”. In ancient thinking women did not count in reckoning descent cuz it was then believed that the complete human was present in the man’s sperm (the woman’s egg being discovered in 1827). The woman’s womb was just the soil in which the seed was planted.
The geneologies are completely different but they’re both designed to prove that Jesus is a direct desendant of David in order fullfil prophecy.
I think a new thread should be started for this discusion. I bet a lot of people would find it interresting…
1, February 7, 2008 at 11:51 am
The reason these two men give their accounts of Christ’s genealogy (Matthew from Joseph’s side, Luke from Mary’s) was to prove that not only was Jesus’ claim to the throne of David valid, but also to show that He fulfilled what God spoke through the prophet in Isaiah 7:14, and what He spoke to the serpent in Genesis 3:15. Luke doesn’t have to mention Mary in the genealogy, as the word “enomizeto” is clearly indicative of Jesus’ adoptive father being Joseph, thus leading one to infer that this is the line of Mary.
Plus, if you notice at the end of Matthew’s genalogy, he writes, “…and Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called ‘Christ’.” Jesus was not “begotten” by Joseph, He was “born of Mary” (see also Galatians 4:4). This accomplished the Genesis prophecy, that the “Seed of the woman” would cruch the serpent’s head. Since “seed” only refers to the beggeting of sons by fathers, and since the sinful nature is passed along by the father, Jesus could not have had a human father, otherwise He would have inherited the sinful human nature.
He was “regarded, considered” the son of Joseph, Heli, Matthat, David, Abraham, etc. This is NOT “rewording Scripture”, but simply rendering what was originally written in the Greek. That’s what was written, that’s what it means. And even if we do go with “supposed”, that still doesn’t change the meaning of what is being said. If it was “supposed [thought, believed] that Jesus was the son of Joseph”, then He would still have been “regarded” as Joseph’s son, “considered to be” Joseph’s son, and “accepted” as Joseph’s son.
1, February 7, 2008 at 2:36 pm
You just created another contradiction.
Paul said “Jesus was born of the seed of David”
Then how can you argue that jesus is adopted (you are assumin that; it’s not stated in the bible anyway)?
Prophecy is very very clear that the mesiah would be a direct decendant of King David and you already admitted that Mathew’s geneology links Joseph to King David. Jesus must then be his son. That’s a BIG contradiction.
Any “Vigrin” is a mistranslation of Isaiah 7:14. The word is correctly translated from ancient Hebrew as “Young Woman”
1, February 8, 2008 at 5:11 am
Of course the Messiah must come through David (John 7:42). And He did. If you read Matthew’s genalogy, you will notice something in Matthew 1:12. It says, “And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechoniah begat Shealtiel…” Now, this presents a problem, because in Jeremiah 22:28-30, God says of Jeconiah (This passage in Jeremiah refers to him as “Coniah”, the title “Jeh” being stripped from him) that “none of his descendants shall prosper, sitting on the throne of David, and ruling in Judah anymore.” This is another reason that Christ could not have been the natural son of Joseph. Christ’s Davidic bloodline came through Mary, since she did not descend from (Je)coniah.
And as far as my “assuming” Joseph adopted Jesus, with “no Biblical proof”: Read Luke 2:41-50. Verse 41 says, “His parents went to Jerusalem…” Verse 48 says, “…His mother said to Him, ‘Son, why have you done this? Look, Your father and I have sought you anxiously.” And, of course, in Luke 3:23, it says that Jesus was, “(as it was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli…” Now, if Jesus was not adopted as a son by Joseph, then Luke would have said, “Jesus began His ministry, being (or so it was supposed) the son of Joseph…”
As far as the Greek rendering of the Hebrew word “almah” into “parthenos”, this is perfectly legitimate. “Almah” can refer to a young woman, and also a chaste virgin. Matthew clears up any misconceptions by using the Greek word “parthenos.” Besides, how miraculous a sign would it be for a “young woman” to give birth to a child?
1, February 8, 2008 at 12:39 pm
It’s truly amazing how much we let ourselves be affected by ignorance.
Pilgrim, the first respondent said it best. What is the purpose of this post? It certainly isn’t to relay anything of fact, as has been clearly shown.
Here’s another question for you. Do you ever write out of a desire to unite your readers? Out of a desire to spread Christ’s message of love and compassion?
1, February 8, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Kudos for your clever linking.
It wasn’t my intention to be disparaging.
Ignorance defined by dictionary.com:
ig·no·rance (noun) - The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.
Show me, citing academic references, how pentagrams are “satanic.”
If you can’t, what I’ve said would seem to be true. Whether you accept that as a negative is your prerogative.
1, February 8, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Jerome,
I see this stuff and I just get angry. I end up coming across as a hot - head and then wish I hadn’t. LOL You’ve got a cool head man; and I respect that a lot!
I checked out your Violet Sun site and I like what you have to say there. I am happy as an atheist and have no intention of taking up Wicca (or maybe I just don’t understand it enough yet) but I must admit that I really like the message and the beliefs in general.
This Bill guy said “Thanks for the explanation and the links. That seems like a pretty good explanation.” yet they still will not remove the video. This is not about ignorance anymore. It is willful spreading of misinformation. They just want to make other religions and faiths look as bad as possible. That is the point of this web site and I, for one, do not understand it!
1, April 10, 2008 at 8:08 pm
The claims made in this thread regarding the Mormon church and its temples are absolutely ridiculous to the point of complete absurdity. I am LDS and my family has been LDS back to the days of emigrating from England and pushing hand carts across the plains. Any comparison to Mormonism and Satanism shows a complete lack of understanding regarding either.
I encourage all who are interested in knowing the will of the Lord Jesus Christ and the truth of his restored Gospel on the Earth today to pray about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (AKA the Mormon Church), the Book of Mormon, and the Lord’s prophet on the Earth today, who is the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only church on the face of the Earth today that identically matches the church and doctrine that was setup anciently by Jesus Christ and was later headed by Peter. Be not deceived people who would have you listen to them and believe otherwise, but PRAY ABOUT IT FOR YOURSELF, HAVING A DESIRE TO KNOW THE TRUTH OF ALL THINGS< AN HAVING FAITH THAT YOU WILL RECEIVE AN ANSWER and I testify to you in the name of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, the son of God, who was and is the great Jehovah, that you will receive and answer and will know for yourself of the divinity and truthfulness of the Lord’s restored church.
I say this in the name of my Lord, savior, and redeemer Jesus Christ, Amen!
1, April 10, 2008 at 8:59 pm
I think Colby meant to say “in the name of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, one of the sons of God!” There is no reason to pray about something that is completely contrary to the clearly revealed Word of God, and that is false doctrine. While I am not trying to make comparisons between Mormonism and satanism, I do heed the Word of God when it says to avoid those who preach another gospel. Though it be a man or an angel (like Moroni), they are to be accursed!
May I remind the reader the Bible also clearly states that if a prophet is not 100% accurate on their prophecies, they were labeled as a FALSE prophet AND STONED. Pretty much sums the status of EVERY so-called prophet in the “restored” church.
The issue is not with the words you are using, but exactly WHAT you mean by those words. Unfortunately, the Mormon church has chosen to adopt the language of evangelicals so that they appear to be true Christians.
As the lovely hymn puts it, “My hope is built on nothing less than JESUS’ blood and righteousness!” To lean on the LDS, the Book of Mormon, a false prophet, etc. is only a recipe for disaster - a Christ-less eternity! That is not something which I rejoice about, but find it very say that people can be so duped into believing what is fed them by each succeeding priest, rabbi, cleric, pope, imam, pastor, or prophet who teaches what goes against the gospel as taught by the apostle Paul.
Following Christ and not man-made religion,
The Desert Pastor
1, April 11, 2008 at 6:20 am
Pray about whether or not Mormonism is true? Well why not pray about Roman Catholicism, Islam, and Hinduism too?
We are never instructed to pray about whether a belief is true. Never once when Jesus was confronting false teachers did He ever tell them to “pray about it.” Nope, He said to them time and time again, “Have you not read,” and “For it is written.”
The truth was already to behold in the Scriptures and no one needed to go outside of His revealed Word for some esoteric, emotional, mystic experience or feeling. The Bereans even followed suit when they studied the Scriptures to make sure what Paul was saying was true. They didn’t pray to see if it was true, they studied the Word of God.
This is where LDS is afraid. Have you noticed that they never, ever encourage you to take up your Bible and study to see if LDS is true? Nope, they know they’d lose hands down every time and never get a convert. Check out the video The Bible vs The Book of Mormon to find out why.
Study to show yourself approved. Make an educated, not indoctrinated, decision.
*What do Mormons really believe about Christians?
*3,913 Documented Changes to the Book of Mormon
*Mormonism’s History of Outlandish Outer space Opinions, Crazy Cosmology, Silly Spacemen, and Lunar Lunacy
*What Mormons Have Said About the Apostle Paul
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According to Mormonism, Are We To Have A Personal Relationship With Jesus Christ Or Not?
*LDS finally admits that Joseph Smith was a polygamist, and that he told different versions of the “first vision.”
*On this Martin Luther King Jr. Day, the Mormon church wishes to remind you that they’ve been racism-free since 1978.
*Joesph Smith explains the meaning of the word “Mormon.”
*When is an “everlasting covenant” not an “everlasting covenant?” When polygamy becomes unpopular.
*The Gordon B. Hinckley Interview
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Recognizing the 202nd birthday of Joseph Smith by posting some of his false prophecies.
*Requirements for Mormon Salvation
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Thanks to Mormonism, discerning good from evil is as easy as a handshake or a hair color.
*33 Facts Mormons Won’t Tell You
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Mormonism on how spiritual veggies differ from earthly veggies.
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The Mormon doctrine of Blood Atonement as taught from the mouth of Brigham Young.
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The Doctrine of Blood Atonement as taught by the Mormon organization.
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The top 5 Brigham Young teachings that Mormons desperately try to conceal from you.
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Who is the “Angel of Light” and what contribution did he make to Mormonism through Joseph Smith?
*Lifting the Veil on Polygamy
*DNA vs The Book of Mormon
*The Lost Book of Abraham